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	<title>Comments on: Charging Hourly Vs. Fixed Price</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/</link>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/comment-page-1/#comment-1922</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 00:28:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/#comment-1922</guid>
		<description>terry

even though we&#039;re in disparate businesses, i couldn&#039;t agree with you more.

i create training products, and like all noobs, have undercut myself. i then find myself doing revisions and post-delivery documentation that i don&#039;t get paid for.

thankfully, first time bitten, first time learned.

but i would emphasise to all SMEs and freelancers that they meticulously record all the time they spend on a project. after which, they have a real benchmark for future quotes, and muscle to include flexible rates on development.

all the best.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>terry</p>
<p>even though we&#8217;re in disparate businesses, i couldn&#8217;t agree with you more.</p>
<p>i create training products, and like all noobs, have undercut myself. i then find myself doing revisions and post-delivery documentation that i don&#8217;t get paid for.</p>
<p>thankfully, first time bitten, first time learned.</p>
<p>but i would emphasise to all SMEs and freelancers that they meticulously record all the time they spend on a project. after which, they have a real benchmark for future quotes, and muscle to include flexible rates on development.</p>
<p>all the best.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/comment-page-1/#comment-1808</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 03:19:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/#comment-1808</guid>
		<description>@daniel: I think the hourly rate is more because the majority of clients are not exactly sure what they want.  They might have a rough idea but they are not going to have all of the details of a project in mind.  That is where we freelancers provide value, helping turn the customers&#039; thoughts into real work.

I don&#039;t think there will ever be a &quot;web factory&quot;.  Look at writing a book, that industry has been around for hundreds of years but we still need people to combine skills to create the final product.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@daniel: I think the hourly rate is more because the majority of clients are not exactly sure what they want.  They might have a rough idea but they are not going to have all of the details of a project in mind.  That is where we freelancers provide value, helping turn the customers&#8217; thoughts into real work.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think there will ever be a &#8220;web factory&#8221;.  Look at writing a book, that industry has been around for hundreds of years but we still need people to combine skills to create the final product.</p>
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		<title>By: daniel</title>
		<link>http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/comment-page-1/#comment-1724</link>
		<dc:creator>daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:52:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/#comment-1724</guid>
		<description>Man, there&#039;s so much to take in here. I like the idea of having a fixed, set price, because it makes the process much easier for me.

Do you think that the reason we have to charge by the hour, instead of a fixed rate, is because the market is not fully defined. Perhaps we wear too many hats as freelancers, when really, we could approach it as a factory where each person has a specific task to do.

Can you imagine the inefficiency in a market if there was never a fixed price, but the price per widget always fluctuated from one client to the next? I think that just means there hasn&#039;t been enough specialization, and so the variables are unknown, which means you can&#039;t say exactly what it will cost because you don&#039;t have enough information and can&#039;t make a sufficient prediction.

Maybe someone should start a web factory where hyper specialized technicians only add a closing tag on all open tags, or a person that makes sure each website has a header tag, etc.,

Do you know if there&#039;s a web company like that?

Great articles. Hope you don&#039;t mind me rambling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Man, there&#8217;s so much to take in here. I like the idea of having a fixed, set price, because it makes the process much easier for me.</p>
<p>Do you think that the reason we have to charge by the hour, instead of a fixed rate, is because the market is not fully defined. Perhaps we wear too many hats as freelancers, when really, we could approach it as a factory where each person has a specific task to do.</p>
<p>Can you imagine the inefficiency in a market if there was never a fixed price, but the price per widget always fluctuated from one client to the next? I think that just means there hasn&#8217;t been enough specialization, and so the variables are unknown, which means you can&#8217;t say exactly what it will cost because you don&#8217;t have enough information and can&#8217;t make a sufficient prediction.</p>
<p>Maybe someone should start a web factory where hyper specialized technicians only add a closing tag on all open tags, or a person that makes sure each website has a header tag, etc.,</p>
<p>Do you know if there&#8217;s a web company like that?</p>
<p>Great articles. Hope you don&#8217;t mind me rambling.</p>
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		<title>By: Terry</title>
		<link>http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/comment-page-1/#comment-1384</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 05:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/#comment-1384</guid>
		<description>Shane,

Yes, I&#039;m a corporate web designer by day. But I&#039;ve freelanced here and there, over the past few years. That&#039;s why my blog focuses so much on the &#039;side work&#039; aspect of doing 9-to-5. Anyhow, I basically structure my estimates like so:

The SPECS clearly define my role, what I&#039;m being asked to produce, any production timeline, and how many versions/revisions they get in this package deal.

That last part is very important, because under my estimated FEE--which these days is usually a ballpark range, to play it safe--is where I put my standard &#039;excessive revisions&#039; statement: &quot;Work outside the scope detailed above will be billed additionally at $XX/hour...&quot; (I like to think that scares clients into being more thoughtful with their requests.) 

Then my TERMS usually spell out 1) when the job is considered final, 2) when payment is due, 3) what happens if the job is terminated, 4) etcetera.

Finally, a friendly NOTE reminds the client that &quot;any changes to the specs herein will require a NEW estimate to be approved--via signature--before any work can begin.&quot; (This usually keeps the client pretty prompt in getting back with their approval.)

Especially for smaller jobs, estimates are a thing of beauty. One, they let the client know you are a serious, organized professional. Two, they tend to &#039;weed out the riffraff&#039; of clients who aren&#039;t serious themselves. And three, a thorough and thoughtful estimate can be a blueprint for the entire job!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shane,</p>
<p>Yes, I&#8217;m a corporate web designer by day. But I&#8217;ve freelanced here and there, over the past few years. That&#8217;s why my blog focuses so much on the &#8217;side work&#8217; aspect of doing 9-to-5. Anyhow, I basically structure my estimates like so:</p>
<p>The SPECS clearly define my role, what I&#8217;m being asked to produce, any production timeline, and how many versions/revisions they get in this package deal.</p>
<p>That last part is very important, because under my estimated FEE&#8211;which these days is usually a ballpark range, to play it safe&#8211;is where I put my standard &#8216;excessive revisions&#8217; statement: &#8220;Work outside the scope detailed above will be billed additionally at $XX/hour&#8230;&#8221; (I like to think that scares clients into being more thoughtful with their requests.) </p>
<p>Then my TERMS usually spell out 1) when the job is considered final, 2) when payment is due, 3) what happens if the job is terminated, 4) etcetera.</p>
<p>Finally, a friendly NOTE reminds the client that &#8220;any changes to the specs herein will require a NEW estimate to be approved&#8211;via signature&#8211;before any work can begin.&#8221; (This usually keeps the client pretty prompt in getting back with their approval.)</p>
<p>Especially for smaller jobs, estimates are a thing of beauty. One, they let the client know you are a serious, organized professional. Two, they tend to &#8216;weed out the riffraff&#8217; of clients who aren&#8217;t serious themselves. And three, a thorough and thoughtful estimate can be a blueprint for the entire job!</p>
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		<title>By: shane</title>
		<link>http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/comment-page-1/#comment-1372</link>
		<dc:creator>shane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 21:46:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/#comment-1372</guid>
		<description>Terry - feel free to link to the article. I like the name, it provides a balanced view to us out-housers (heh).

How exactly are your writing your estimates to protect yourself? We have a template I am going to post soon but I would love to see what you did. Anything that helps the experience of fixed bid be a more positive one is worth posting.

So, you are working in-house at a firm and free lancing on the side?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Terry &#8211; feel free to link to the article. I like the name, it provides a balanced view to us out-housers (heh).</p>
<p>How exactly are your writing your estimates to protect yourself? We have a template I am going to post soon but I would love to see what you did. Anything that helps the experience of fixed bid be a more positive one is worth posting.</p>
<p>So, you are working in-house at a firm and free lancing on the side?</p>
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		<title>By: Terry</title>
		<link>http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/comment-page-1/#comment-1371</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 21:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/#comment-1371</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve always worked on fixed bid, and I&#039;ve become fairly confident in my estimating abilities, when it comes to print work. But over the past couple of years, I&#039;ve branched out more and more into web design--something new for me. 

My first web-oriented job, I underestimated my hours BIG-TIME! (Not for the initial design/layout work, but for the rounds of revisions that came after!) But knowing that this would probably happen, I drew up a pretty airtight set of terms and had them signed by the client before beginning any work. This saved me from having to eat 4 hours of a 16-hour job!

Looking back, I probably should have tried to negotiate an hourly contract, as I was unfamiliar with estimating for web work. But even so, one the realities of working on fixed bid is that you&#039;re always at risk of going over your hours--because the responsibility&#039;s all on you. That&#039;s why it&#039;s ultra-important to lay out terms that will protect you when/if this happens. 

I list my terms right there on the estimate itself. And even though a &#039;signed&#039; estimate is no substitute for an actual contract, I usually require the client&#039;s signature on the agreed estimate anyhow--just so I know they&#039;ve read, understand, and agree to these terms.

A successful &#039;fixed&#039; estimate must include terms that protect yourself against the parts of a job that will always be hard to &#039;estimate.&#039; (Such as feature creep, excessive revisions, etc.) Without that in place, you&#039;ll get screwed every time...

(Shane, this is another great post. Is it okay if I reference it on my blog at http://www.theinhouser.blogspot.com/ ? I&#039;ve just started writing a series of articles related to this very topic.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always worked on fixed bid, and I&#8217;ve become fairly confident in my estimating abilities, when it comes to print work. But over the past couple of years, I&#8217;ve branched out more and more into web design&#8211;something new for me. </p>
<p>My first web-oriented job, I underestimated my hours BIG-TIME! (Not for the initial design/layout work, but for the rounds of revisions that came after!) But knowing that this would probably happen, I drew up a pretty airtight set of terms and had them signed by the client before beginning any work. This saved me from having to eat 4 hours of a 16-hour job!</p>
<p>Looking back, I probably should have tried to negotiate an hourly contract, as I was unfamiliar with estimating for web work. But even so, one the realities of working on fixed bid is that you&#8217;re always at risk of going over your hours&#8211;because the responsibility&#8217;s all on you. That&#8217;s why it&#8217;s ultra-important to lay out terms that will protect you when/if this happens. </p>
<p>I list my terms right there on the estimate itself. And even though a &#8217;signed&#8217; estimate is no substitute for an actual contract, I usually require the client&#8217;s signature on the agreed estimate anyhow&#8211;just so I know they&#8217;ve read, understand, and agree to these terms.</p>
<p>A successful &#8216;fixed&#8217; estimate must include terms that protect yourself against the parts of a job that will always be hard to &#8216;estimate.&#8217; (Such as feature creep, excessive revisions, etc.) Without that in place, you&#8217;ll get screwed every time&#8230;</p>
<p>(Shane, this is another great post. Is it okay if I reference it on my blog at <a href="http://www.theinhouser.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.theinhouser.blogspot.com/</a> ? I&#8217;ve just started writing a series of articles related to this very topic.)</p>
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		<title>By: walter</title>
		<link>http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/comment-page-1/#comment-1335</link>
		<dc:creator>walter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 22:15:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/#comment-1335</guid>
		<description>I always gave a high and low estimate of projects that I bidded out hourly.  If I was approaching the upper limit I would let the company know that way they could decide to go further, or see if it was going to cost too much.  Rarely was I off more than 5-10% (e.g. this project should take 55-65 hours, but ends of taking 70 hours). This way there are no surprises, and the client can budget accordingly because they had the estimate.  If I came in under the number of hours, then it would just save the client some money.

I almost don&#039;t want to work with a client that doesn&#039;t want a budget estimate, because it shows they don&#039;t have much business experience, and may not be able to pay when it comes time.

I now split my projects about 50/50 with per hour and per contract.  The difference is that almost any change someone wants is responded with &quot;option X wasn&#039;t originally requested it will cost $Y to implement, and take an extra Z hours/days&quot;. This is responded with usually &quot;OK&quot; or &quot;Thanks, but I guess it isn&#039;t that important.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always gave a high and low estimate of projects that I bidded out hourly.  If I was approaching the upper limit I would let the company know that way they could decide to go further, or see if it was going to cost too much.  Rarely was I off more than 5-10% (e.g. this project should take 55-65 hours, but ends of taking 70 hours). This way there are no surprises, and the client can budget accordingly because they had the estimate.  If I came in under the number of hours, then it would just save the client some money.</p>
<p>I almost don&#8217;t want to work with a client that doesn&#8217;t want a budget estimate, because it shows they don&#8217;t have much business experience, and may not be able to pay when it comes time.</p>
<p>I now split my projects about 50/50 with per hour and per contract.  The difference is that almost any change someone wants is responded with &#8220;option X wasn&#8217;t originally requested it will cost $Y to implement, and take an extra Z hours/days&#8221;. This is responded with usually &#8220;OK&#8221; or &#8220;Thanks, but I guess it isn&#8217;t that important.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: shane</title>
		<link>http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/comment-page-1/#comment-1322</link>
		<dc:creator>shane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:44:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/#comment-1322</guid>
		<description>Absolutely!!! We always have an expected budget when working hourly. Its critical for the success of the project. The difference is that with an hourly rate that number floats based upon the path the project takes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely!!! We always have an expected budget when working hourly. Its critical for the success of the project. The difference is that with an hourly rate that number floats based upon the path the project takes.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/comment-page-1/#comment-1314</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 14:48:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shaneandpeter.com/2007/09/19/charging-hourly-vs-fixed-price/#comment-1314</guid>
		<description>For those who use hourly rates, do you provide the client with an estimate on your contract?

e.g. &quot;I estimate this project will take 100 hours at $100 an hour&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those who use hourly rates, do you provide the client with an estimate on your contract?</p>
<p>e.g. &#8220;I estimate this project will take 100 hours at $100 an hour&#8221;</p>
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